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Socoder -> Concept/Design -> An image editing program |
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| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 07:35 | |
Phoenix
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I've decided to revive my old Paint-replacement program, and rewrite it. But before starting to add buttons, lists, spin-wheels and all those things I want to have a solid plan of where to put them. I can't just impulsively add things when I feel like it because then it'll end up looking like Graphics Gale. Functionality-wise, I want it to be light weight like MS Paint, but with added layering support, a more flexible palette and some small general improvements. I want it to be able to support multiple documents simultaneously (MDI, Tabs?) But I don't want the interface to be cluttered (and I think we all agree, based on the Editor-topic). I've looked at many different editors (Photoshop, Gimp, Paint.net, Graphics Gale, Paint Shop Pro, ...) and they all look the same. Toolbars, menus, windows everywhere. Pixen looks kind of nice. But it's Mac-only. I'm not trying to create Photoshop, because I'm more interested in pixel-precision editing. I'd like to hear suggestions on both functionality and appearance, and preferably motivations  What can I do to be different from the rest?
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| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 07:46 | |
Jayenkai
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"I want to draw" mode, whereby the surround vanishes, leaving you with a fullscreen editor.. Hold Shift/Ctrl/Alt/something to get the toolbars to scroll in, letting you pick your colors and whatnot, then release ctrl and get back to the doodlin'
-=-=- ''Load, Next List!'' 
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| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 07:54 | |
JL235
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I'd like to see a paint program that had an interface similar to an IDE. Where the interna; windows are all stuck to the edges and can be moved about to the side I want them. I can set them to be permanent or to autohide and auto-popup depending on if the mouse is on them or not. I really hate having to close layer windows in order to save on space and then have to reopen them later for use. Supporting tabs might also be interesting. I really hate how paint programs always have lots of internal windows. The Gimp especially is bad at this, but Photoshop and Paint.net are pretty guilty too. |edit| I posted as Jay posted, but I really like his idea. Especially about holding ctrl to get to stuff which I imagine as overlaying the image with all the internal windows that you normally have for everything. Essentially very quick switching between an only drawing mode and only options mode. |edit| |
| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 10:05 | |
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Phoenix
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I like that idea a lot, but I don't want to completely cover the image with lots of windows and toolbars when ctrl is held. Definitely a good idea though!
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| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 10:37 | |
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Jayenkai
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Lots of windows and toolbars!?! Left panel = icons for draw, rect, oval, fill, grab, whatever.. 1 single column, 16x16 icons. save space.. Keep it simple. Top panel Menu Load | Save | Save As | User's collection of icons, definable by drag+dropping them there, ala the Firefox toolbars Right panel Colour picker, and left,middle,right options (solid/gradient/tile, that kinda thing) Under that, stick a list of layers, just their names.. If the user wants more than that, click "Layers" heading and it'll pop out to let them play in more detail, otherwise the layer names just let you select which to use.  ala PaintShop Pro, but with a little more functionality.. -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
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| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 11:09 | |
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Phoenix
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Layer window, color picker, palette, tool window, preview window (if you're zoomed in) -- that is "a lot" to me at least. I will have those little pins in the corner of every window (and probably the menu bar too) so that you can quickly show/hide them.
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| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 15:01 | |
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mindstorm8191 |
Jay, that picture looks good. But if you ask me, all those icons at the left side? I have no idea what they do. I'm not saying its a bad idea, but you might want to consider having captions pop up when you mouse over them. ...Although, just a name of the item might not make things very clear, either. But I don't know... Also, some of those could be combined into groups. My idea for an image editor (which when I tried didn't get very far) was to, when you clicked the button, have a larger set of buttons pop up, where you could pick how best to use it. For example, there are several tools there to select regions of the image. That would be one button on the main screen, and when clicked, you could pick which selection type to use. Not trying to dissuade you phoenix, I think you're objectives are great - it'd be an editor I might like to use. -=-=- Vesuvius web game
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| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 15:54 | |
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Jayenkai
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For the record, that's Paintshop Pro.. That's what I use, and that's how I use it. (Other than that Layer thing I added bottom right) But thanks for thinking I sat and worked on that for hours  Grouping's a nice idea, too. Yeah. But if you're going to draw a whole bar on the left, you might as well fill it up, rather than just have 4 or 5 "Group" icons.. Otherwise you just have a big long empty bar! IMO, a bar feels better than a window, so I'd rather have the whole bar there.. Obviously if you'd rather do a little toolbar, you could.. but if the other sides are all scrolling in, I think having a bizarre tiny thing on the left would look a little odd. But of course, that's just me.. Options, options, options!! -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
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| Mon, 27 Oct 2008, 21:28 | |
HoboBen
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Some ideas... How about reducing the always-visible menus to just a palate (like MS Paint's) and toolbox so that choosing either is a simple flick of the wrist to either the left or the right of the screen for each menu (not to the top or bottom - it takes to long to position the mouse. The left/right of the screen limits how far the mouse can go, so you're always only a few pixels away from what you want) And try to reduce the amount of time spent clicking through windows to do mundane things - paint's colour picker takes too long to get to! This should be opened with a single-key hotkey. Also, ideally you could use both the mouse and the keyboard in equal measure with lots of shortcuts such as holding down R and scrolling the mouse wheel up/down to make the pen colour redder/less red. G for green, B for blue, W for more/less white, etc. And for when you want to draw accurately and a mouse doesn't cut it, how about your hand leaves the mouse and your right thumb hits Right Control to toggle drawing on/off and you use the arrow keys to draw etch-a-sketch style. In terms of features something to easily let you preview the image tiled, fullscreen stretch-to-fit and fullscreen centered. Here's my fabulous mock-up 
-=-=- blog | work | code | more code |
| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 00:04 | |
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JL235
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One thing I'd like to see, customizable tool bars. So many paint options I don't use (or rarely use) so it'd be nice if I could move them to a second toolbar which could be auto-hidden. The main one is then just the common options I use the most. It might be even better if this could also be saved and loaded allowing me to have different setups for different tasks. Kinda like Eclipses views system, but I'd want nothing on screen about it (like how you have the views in the top right in Eclipse) when I'm painting. Maybe just hide changing toolbars away in a menu somewhere. |
| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 00:51 | |
Afr0
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Uhm... I'm not too good on menus and interfaces and shit, but what I'd like to see is added support for multiple graphics tablets (not just Wacom...), an algorithm that automatically 'straightens' your lines as you draw them (they have that in Flash, which is pretty neat), support for onion skinning. As well as the ability to import *.max files in 3D so you can draw textures directly onto the character (which is something I've always wanted to see, but never have (I'm not talking about normalmaps like in ZBrush - just plain old textures!))
-=-=- Afr0 Games Project Dollhouse on Github - Please fork!
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| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 01:45 | |
shroom_monk
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I think it would be nice to have an easier to customise palette box. What really annoys me about the Vista version of Paint (it's fine in all the others) is that all the standard colours (like #ff0000 for red and #008000 for dark green) have been replaced with tints of these that may 'look nicer', but are really annoying if you want to create maskable colours for a game or something. You can, of course, change them back to something else, but apart from you having to go through several dialogs for 30 seconds to do this, it won't remember them between sessions! So, a customisable, rememberisificated palette which is easy to modify would be nice.
-=-=- A mushroom a day keeps the doctor away... Keep It Simple, Shroom! |
| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 05:46 | |
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Phoenix
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Great -- lots of suggestions! Don't hesitate to post if you have any more. How about reducing the always-visible menus to just a palate (like MS Paint's) and toolbox so that choosing either is a simple flick of the wrist to either the left or the right of the screen for each menu (not to the top or bottom - it takes to long to position the mouse. The left/right of the screen limits how far the mouse can go, so you're always only a few pixels away from what you want) Not quite sure what you mean, but it gave me the idea that you can hold down a button and then the palette appears directly under the mouse and then disappears when you release the button (or was that what you meant  ?). And I agree with the color picker; it's just too slow. Also, ideally you could use both the mouse and the keyboard in equal measure with lots of shortcuts such as holding down R and scrolling the mouse wheel up/down to make the pen colour redder/less red. G for green, B for blue, W for more/less white, etc.Probably won't be addded. I will have a quick palette where you can choose colors, but not something like you said. There should definitely be keyboard shortcuts though. In terms of features something to easily let you preview the image tiled, fullscreen stretch-to-fit and fullscreen centered.Tiling view was planned on day one. Definitely going into the program. Not sure what you mean by the other ones though. One thing I'd like to see, customizable tool bars. So many paint options I don't use (or rarely use) so it'd be nice if I could move them to a second toolbar which could be auto-hidden. The main one is then just the common options I use the most.I want to make the UI customizeable. So yes, probably will be added. The whole views thing sounds like overkill though. Uhm... I'm not too good on menus and interfaces and shit, but what I'd like to see is added support for multiple graphics tablets (not just Wacom...), an algorithm that automatically 'straightens' your lines as you draw them (they have that in Flash, which is pretty neat), support for onion skinning. As well as the ability to import *.max files in 3D so you can draw textures directly onto the character (which is something I've always wanted to see, but never have (I'm not talking about normalmaps like in ZBrush - just plain old textures!))
So, a customisable, rememberisificated palette which is easy to modify would be nice.The palette is top-priority. |edit| Nice mockup Hobo |edit|
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| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 06:03 | |
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Jayenkai
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If you rightclick the color picker in Paintshop pro, a smaller regular color palette thing pops up... top 10 = red/green/blue/black/white/magenta/etc bottom 10 = the last 10 colors you've used. Handy.. Also handy, but NOT in Paintshop Pro, but definitely needed = 1. If you create a set of gfx in a tiled anim-image style image, and you set the grid to the size of each tile, it'd be handy to have "The number of this tile" when you hover over a tile.. 2. Cheap 3D blocks.. Take a 64x64 image resize to 80x80, and shift image to bottom left. copy image, lighten, shrink to 64x16, place at top, shift each line further left. copy image again, darken, shrink to 16x64, place on right, shift each line further up.  Sorted!! Oh, and use windows, not tabs.. I need to be able to view multiple images at once.. -=-=- ''Load, Next List!''
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| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 06:17 | |
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Phoenix
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With all these special features people want, scripting might be a good idea, no? Shouldn't be hard to add Lua support to the program. Then - since we're all programmers - we can add tiny functions whenever we want to.
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| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 06:34 | |
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Phoenix
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I don't like excluding people on Macintosh, but I'm actually not completely sure about the cross-platform thing. I've never done it before, I don't own any non-Windows machines, and I'm unsure about how much work it would involve. If I wanted to add some unorthodox control, how hard would it be to get it working on all platforms? Feel free to prove my worries wrong, though. |
| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 07:46 | |
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Phoenix
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The major gripe I have with Ecere is that it doesn't feel native. That might seem trivial but it is quite important to me, especially in applications. On the other hand, I could probably use something like wxWidgets which is portable across several platforms and uses native UIs. |
| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 08:21 | |
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Phoenix
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After some further research, wxWidgets looks like a very good solution. It provides cross-platform support for windowing and many other useful things (regex, xml, for instance).
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| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 08:40 | |
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JL235
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Bear in mind that you'll need to install all the extra stuff that your cross platform application requires. This puts people off Java apps because they need the runtime. This puts me off the Gimp because I need to install QT. With Lotus Notes and Lotus Sametime they distribute a Java runtime with the application, this solves the problem. If you want it to be cross-platform then I think being able to distribute any cross-platform libraries with the application is a must in order to hide the fact that you need them. I'd also personally recommend Java since it will need no recompiling to work on other machines. You can then distribute Java, Windows and Mac versions where the OS specific ones have a Java runtime and a .bat/.exe (or Mac equivalent) bundled with the application to run it for you. That way you have the cross platform Java version without the need for compilation and a Windows/Mac specific version which looks like a Windows/Mac app! But a good Windows app is always far better then an ok cross-platform one. |
| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 09:18 | |
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Phoenix
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I didn't notice that wxWidgets required an extra framework to be installed. But so does Java, and .NET. And Java (as far as I know) doesn't have native UI controls either. Perhaps the whole portability idea isn't that nice... |
| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 10:14 | |
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JL235
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It has SWT for native UI controls, but then you need the OS specific binaries to be distributed with each version. The Java version for Windows will not work on MacOS (unless you use the MacOS binaries for it). Swing however is truly cross platform and only requires the Java runtime. If it runs Java (and actually runs) then it'll run your app.
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| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 10:19 | |
Jayenkai
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Probably best to stick to Windows
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| Tue, 28 Oct 2008, 10:58 | |
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Phoenix
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It still needs the Java Runtime, so I might as well use .NET/Mono. And I won't. Probably best to stick to Windows, unless there's some super-duper library I missed. Ooh, wait. There's BlitzMax and MaxGui Nah, not really. I don't even have BlitzMax.
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